One of our members posted an interesting question in the New Cards thread.
I think it's something that should be open for discussion, so I'm creating this thread for it to be continued here.

Members Post:

My main question is, "When did VG become Totem's "Explicit" and "X-Rated" venue for "Desktop STRIPPERS"? Or maybe a better question would be, "When did VG MEMBERS begin expecting that?"

Wasn't the development of DESK BABES supposed to be the venue for those who wanted to see "Explicit" and/or "X-Rated" shows?

VG is marketed as a "STRIPPER on your desktop". In that regard, I don't expect a VG model to put on a show commensurate with it being an XXX porno movie. A girl who "strips" may end up removing SOME or ALL of her clothes, and it may depend on the local laws in the geographic area where she performs her striptease. That "definition" will accommodate any VG member here who purchases model shows from VG. In my geographical location there are "Full Nudity" establishments where the girl will remove all clothing, but ONLY if no alcoholic beverages are served to the patrons. If ***** is served, the girl will not be allowed to display nipples or any genitalia area (thus they wear "pasties" and must leave at least something that covers their genitalia area).

I agree that may not be the case in other areas of the world. Yes, I have travelled and gone to the full fledged "Banana Shows" in some countries where anything the "stripper" could shove up their bodily orifice was inserted there.

When I go to a "strip bar" or "gentlemen's club", I don't EXPECT to see a performer ("stripper") "showing pink" or "spreading legs" or "shoving a broomstick up her *** or ****" (or even "playing with herself" with her own hands). If she removes SOME or ALL of her clothing, then she has met the requirements of her "stripper performance". And I think that Rex's recent request for feedback about casting "beautiful girls for VG who will NOT spread their legs" is totally in line with what a VG "stripper" could be expected to do. I'm amazed some responses Rex got said, "If she won't spread her legs, I'm not buying her show!" Poor expectation from the purchaser of a model in VG.

I'm NOT saying it would be necessary to STOP VG models from "showing pink" or "spreading legs" or "touching themselves" on VG if the model wanted to do that. But ALL of those clips could just be called "Full Nudity". Nobody should EXPECT a VG "stripper" to put on an XXX rated show JUST BECAUSE she got "fully nude". If the model does any of those "extra" things, fine. But the ONLY ratings that should be "required" for VG clips should be "No Nudity", "Topless", and "Full Nudity", even if she does anything "extra".

If a Totem customer wants to see GUARANTEED "Explicit" or "X-Rated" shows where the model will "spread legs" or "show pink" or insert ANYTHING into any of her body cavities, they should be buying Desk Babe shows. There should be no "guarantees" that ANY VG show will be "explicit" or "x-rated", whether there is leg-spreading, pink-showing, or the insertion of a telephone pole into somewhere interior to the model's body parts.

When did Virtual Girl go "hardcore"? Why should ANY VG show clip need an "explicit" or "x-rated" tag...for ANY reason? Heck, we might as well just get rid of Desk Babes and combine all the cards into one venue if the expectation is "Strippers On Your Desktop" means "explicit and x-rated" XXX-Hardcore now.

Agree & support WA's decision to create this topic, but to give an understanding as to how long this subject has been debated, see the pic for the bottom end of a search on topic with "explicit" in the title.

One such topic can be found here:

http://www.virtuagirl.com/forumPost.php?foId=3&ftId=982

Everything about iStripper / 2 be Explicit or not 2 be?

This subject seems to be in the top 5 debates.We have one group who wants to see everything(and sometimes anything).And another group who seem to think that will "lower the class" of this site.And the...

One requirement of this topic though is to keep it civil. If you read the above topic, you will find that towards the end, it started to become personal. I recall other topics where it got a lot nastier. Don't let it happen here!

This debate can easily get heated if members do not as WA has said many times, "take a deep breath".

VG, VG2, Stripsaver2 all of Totem's prior Desktop stripper programs, Had been just as Explicit or X-rated. In fact I'd say the prior products were even more so than it is now.
The biggest difference in the older products, was resolution.
You really couldn't see the Explicit or X-rated action because the Size of the product was so small on the screen.

VirtuaGirl HD changed all that.
Up until about card a0500 VG was a very explicit and often X-rated product.

At that time there were only 4 levels.
No nudity
Topless
Nude
Explicit - included anything that was more then just Nude.

In 2009 Totem created a new lesbian based product Similar in style to the gay product VirtuaGuy. This new product was called Deskbabes.
Totem Decided that ONE GUI would be used for all of the Products.

This required a new Rating system with the addition of 2 more level.
There is a Level 0, which so far has remained unused.
And the Addition of Level 5.

Totem, not the Members, created the Level Guide for assigning the Levels which are encoded into the clip and the clip name.
Since 2009, this Guide has been a work in progress. As new clips with Borderline or Different Not seen before content comes up, the guide has been adjusted.

I think it is very close to being just about perfect, with the most recent change.
Now the Split between Level 3 and Level 4 just needs a little tweak..

The only similarity between Deskbabes to VirtuaGirl, was that it would be all girls.
It is a completely Different product from VG.

So For the Members who always say, "if you want explicit or X-rated content, use DB"
It's like comparing Bananas to Sneakers. They aren't even similar.

I'm in the US. I've been to many Gentlemen's clubs.
I've never been to one that didn't have spreading, or heavy rubbing.
and some of them Did have finger insertions.
These were all BYOB clubs.

So that is what I expect from VG.
A good performance with Dancing and Striptease, but it also should go to completion with between the leg views, and if the model is willing, heavy rubbing / insertion.

The Level control of the GUI, give you as a Member, the Option to View or NOT view this content.
But it is part of the content, and should not be restricted or removed.

Granted, There were a few clubs that Had Liquor License. and In thoes clubs, the girls couldn't even get Toppless. Pasties over the nipples, and G-strings.
But the Clubs with Liquor License were far and few... and very unpopular.

Deskbabes is not a substitute for Virtuagirl, it also not a more X-rated version of VirtuaGirl.
Deskbabes is it's own product, it is not a stripping or Dance product.
"Sex on your Desktop" featuring all girls.

With VirtuaGirl, I want a good Performance that includes All the Levels, including Explicit and X-rated content, just like it has always been.

I don't think anyone is asking fo VG to become a hardcore XXX porn product.
We just want it to still contain the explicit and X-rated type of clips it has in the past.

@Wyldanimal

OK, that's the first time I've ever seen a complete explanation of Totem's intended differences between VG and Desk Babes. It clears up some things I've wondered about in the past. I always assumed DB was more "Sex on your Desktop" than VG, but couldn't figure out if it was supposed to be "2 girl lesbian", why there were some single model shows on it. I'm still having some difficulty discerning why having a dildo shoved inside a girl on Desk Babes is "Sex on your Desktop" while having a model with her fingers inside her on VG isn't "Sex on your Desktop", but that's just me. ;-)

Hopefully someday everyone will be able to agree on what an "explicit" vs an "x-rated" clip should contain, but I doubt that will ever happen. That's what I was posting about in the first place. I can't conceive of any "guideline" used by Totem that will please everybody when it comes to deciding if a clip is "explicit" vs "x-rated". Or for that matter, even some of the other tags used. There are just too many variables in the opinions different people will have.

As an example, take a clip where the model is on the taskbar wearing only a thong or bikini bottom. Obviously, she is "Topless". At no time during the clip does she expose any nudity below the bottom clothing item. But she does slide her hand inside the thong/bikini bottom and is obviously "touching herself" ("explicit"?) or maybe even inserting part of her hand into herself ("x-rated"?). What is the appropriate "tag" for the nudity level of that clip?

I guess it depends on whether the criteria is "What you see" vs "What she is doing". I have a very vivid imagination, so I wouldn't have a problem calling that clip "explicit" or "x-rated". ;-)

Many other members would probably disagree with me and say "It's only topless!" And that's OK too. But it would never stop any debate from occurring in the future again. ;-)

I'm satisfied with your answer. In as much as I am the "Member" who made the post you used in the second post of this thread, you can close this thread if you want to.

PS - Just so there is no misunderstanding, I have NO PROBLEM with a VG model being explicit or x-rated. In my previous "mis"-understanding of Totem's idea of the differences between VG and DB, I just never EXPECTED a model in VG to have to include explicit or x-rated content in one of her shows. The ***** of it would never have been a determining factor in whether I would buy her show or not. That's why I don't have a problem with Rex's idea of casting "no leg spread" models for VG. But obviously based on some other member's posts, they would have a problem and have even stated they would not buy a show like that because it lacked explicit or x-rated content in the show. To each his own, I guess.

Just a note as I think this have been discussed all to much in the past.

When Totem released VGHD in 2007 explicit was a "bonus" in the first 200-300 cards or so. Then Totem made an active decision to spice it up a notch letting the girls go further. Before that the girls were "held back" by the team.

Comparing cards by models like Silver and Carol G, whom both did VG2, their early VGHD cards are almost only "full nudity". Their VG2 cards were way more explicit in the old classics.

So to answer the question... the first real X-rated moves were done by Liliane Tiger in her card Brooklyn nights (136). In the clip named a0136_68403.vghd there's some brief explicit fingering that might have warranted an X-rated level by todays standard =)

Thanks for your thorough explanation WA

For me the expectations I have regarding an x-rated clip are set by the last 2 years of x-rated clips. And in these x-rated was either spreading, finger insertion or heavy rubbing etc. Because of that only a few VG shows had x-rated clips and also only few of them.
And if i then see a show that has 8! x-rated clips I will expect a certain behaviour from the model in that show. If the same 8 clips would have been tagged explicit I wouldn't have these expectations and i wouldn't have ***** about the show at all. I wouldn't have said: "Well why does that show not have x-rated content?' I would just have enjoyed the show.
For me a show doesn't have to be explicit or x-rated it just has to be a good performance or a model clearly enjoying what she does. Then she can even be a bit clumsy if i get the vibe that she has fun its fine.

I dont mind seing some explicit in a VG show tho but im not expecting it and when it comes to x-rated thats something im not expecting to se in a VG show at all, in the other end i would not get upset if i got a vg card that had some x-rated.

Just like starryk said.. as long as a girl seems to like what she does and its a good performance explicit and/or x-rated or neither of them.

@Cartref and Wyldanimal,

Just a thought. I used to moderate several different forums for Internet sites. This whole thread seems to be an outstanding candidate for a "Sticky" thread. Several reasons:

1. As shown in Cartref's post above, the same topic has a history of repeating itself over time.

2. Normally when #1 above happens, it is started again by a relatively "new" forum member who may not realize it has been beat to death several times in the past (they don't use or know how to use the forum's Search Function).

3. I've been a member here for over 5 years and I myself have never seen an all-inclusive explanation of Totem's difference between VG and DB as explained in Wyldanimal's post above.

If this thread was made a "Sticky" at the top of the forum section here, it could easily prevent some of the recurring startups of the same topic again. Or at least make a quick "Lookie Here" link in a quick reply post to the reasons for the way clips are tagged concerning "Nudity Level"...which is actually the wrong term for it now, as the GUI calls it "Eroticism" now. That alone...understanding that it isn't really the "level of nudity" but rather the "level of Eroticism" that is being tagged...could make a difference in how the tag is perceived by someone. Honestly, I hadn't noticed myself until posting my earlier posts that the tag is labeling an "Eroticism" level as opposed to a "Nudity Level" now.

Just an idea.

Stickyed as requested

Although I agree with most that has been said in the topic by the OP, I disagree about the comparison about a real strip club and a software that barely recreates the experience. Is just like comparing real driving to GTA.

"Strippers on your desktop" is indeed descriptive of what the software is about, but it does not limit what the models can or would do besides that. And, in fact, it doesn't.

Totem added the sexual behaviour long ago to the shows. Now, they like it or not, is part of the product. The users are used to it and they will dislike plenty if it is gone or absent. In the "Totem's strip club" a girl open her legs, rubs and at times fingers herself. Is normal, to me, that many people expects to see that when they pay their "entrance" to this club. I don't feel amazed if the habituals boo to mild shows that give less for the same money.

People tend to forget that all this X-rated stuff for VG was originated by the "bottle incident" that halted the natural evolution of VG. Before that all was explicit at top, including fingering and pretended orgasms.

VG became X-Rated the moment the need to produce shows again for VG with the content that was removed, ***** off users for years, and restored later had to be equalized, nominately, to a different product that took the same sexual behaviour, increased, to cater for people looking for hardcore porn. When I said "nominately", I'm agreeing that VG, even with some energic fingering as models like Natali Blond or Marie did, should not be ever considered "X-rated", but the top of the VG sexual behaviour. Not a single model ever again achieved the joyful sexual behaviour of the pre-bottle incident and likely none ever will.

So, explicit and X-rated for VG is just semantics. I think, then, that no matter what a VG model is willing to do, or end up doing after the stripping, the production will not release or allow DBs-style of L5 content on the VG product and so, all the spicy stuff happening in VG can be just labeled as explicit. That way no user will ever expect to see real long masturbation in VG and it can finally be detached from DBs.

Now, full nudity and explicit, I do think can be something users with softer preferences might want to keep specified, cause seems some people just don't like to see sexual behaviour. So I think this tag is needed.

As Wyldanimal pointed out: "VG, VG2, Stripsaver2 all of Totem's prior Desktop stripper programs, Had been just as Explicit or X-rated. In fact I'd say the prior products were even more so than it is now.
The biggest difference in the older products, was resolution.
You really couldn't see the Explicit or X-rated action because the Size of the product was so small on the screen."
After purchasing several "Classic" cards, I have seen this for myself. Therefore, I can only conclude that VG has always been at least "explicit", and by today's Totem guidelines, "x-rated" as well.

For information:
But the Classic show majority are nax. full nudity rating, but in the old VG2 shows were expicite and X-rated shows too.
In some show's bonus photoes more models are with vibrators or dildos.
(What a pity these shows aren't seen in Classic shows a few exceptions)

In the picture seen girls:

• Alexis Amore
• Amanda
• Angel Dark
• Ariana
• Belicia
• Carol G.
• Jennifer Max
• Joanna
• Liliane Tiger
• Puma Swede

by XXXXXX
"@Wyldanimal: Do you know of any future plan to extend the rating system beyond 0 to 5 (say from 0 to 10)?"

I would tend to say No.
I myself believe the 6 level system currently in place is almost perfect for all current Totem products.

As I mentioned before, I think there are some tweaks needed between level 3 and level 4.
But other than that, the 6 current levels are sufficient.

What I also feel is that the level guide is too technical.
too much wording that leads to debates about does he clip meet this level wording, or a different level wording.

But this is not up to me or the other QA members, it's Totems guide, and we try to follow it. Sometimes we question and debate about it, but Totem has the final say.

Level 0 has yet to be used by Totem's products, but with the New Product iDancer that REX brought up. This level might be reserved for that.
0- under 18 approved, I think Totem called it "All Audience"
1- no nudity - might containe some sexual suggestive content.
2- toples
3- full nudity, bottomless
4- explicit
5- X-rated

but like I said, each level has a lot of descriptive wording.
so the levels just aren't that simple to decide sometimes.

With more member feed back, citing specific clip examples.
Totem might at some time adjust the guide again.

But I think it is really pretty good as it stands now.

Unfortunately, previously rated cards won't get re-rated anytime soon, if at all.
with current production schedules, there just isn't enough time to go back and re-rate them.
So Unless a card has a flaw and needs to be re-encoded. the current ratings of the cards are how they are.

@szalka
Thanks for the samples from VG2 and also to Gonzo420 for re-quoting what I posted.
Totem's VG has always been an explicit product..
and by Todays guide, often times it would have been X-rated.

There used to be an 'all audience' level in previous versions right? I always wondered why that level was left at some point, did it become 'lightly sexy'?

@member...
The 'all audience' you ask about is the current 'level 0' that is not in use. My guess this level will be used in the new dance software Totem is developing.

I dont know about you guys, but personally I find that VG has better looking girls than DB(excluding the ones who perform in both) so the whole "If you want explicit stuff, go to DB" argument is flawed. I have way more VG cards than DB because of this reason. I know on VG the explicitness is limited but still, very enjoyable when it appears. Who cares what real strip clubs are like, this is a computer program, its never gonna be like the real thing. Leave the explicitness as is, no need to change nothing.

Of course you can compare a real strip club to this, the software is based and tries to recreate aspects of one. But that is all. This software is not even a "strip club simulator", you don't get to tip the strippers, buying them drinks, have a noisy crowd clapping and whistling and a bouncer that kick your arse if you ***** the strippers, lol.

This is an original creation based upon a real activity and just recreates some aspects. Being a virtual world it follows its own rules and need to follow no real, legal, administrative or laboral conditions as any real club. This is just a software and can be anything the creators want. Totem indeed offer striptease, you will get that. But being this a virtual, original, made up club, the limits to what can be included in a show are only limited by the creators will and not the real world.

Nope. The content is as free as with a movie or a book. That's liberty of expression. The company must comply with the regulations for an adult product, like the 18 U.S.C. Section 2257 Compliance. What they put inside is what makes people pay for it and make it a business.

As a company, me is pretty sure they also comply with all the legal requirements. As creators, is their product and their choice to present whatever they want.

Indeed, as a company and as a business, not as creators and not about the content of their products as I said. The content Totem delivers is legal in the free world. Inside the legal aspects, they are free to produce their product any way they want and as long it generates them a benefit.

The discussion just derailed from what level is fingering and spicy stuff alike to if laws and customs for real strip clubs apply to this software. That is not even on the table. In some countries any form of porn is prohibited. In others is even ilegal and is punishable by law to even look at this site and in others you just will go to hell.

Totem would be doing just wrong if they started to think about "reality". This is fantasy, and in fantasy all is good as long as it ***** nobody.

Can we please just give it a rest and stop the bickering about explicit and x-rated material. Especially this new legality discussion. If it wasn't legal, they wouldn't have been in business at all.

We all have the ability to choose which clips we wish to watch and block the ones we don't. People who keep trying to insist that no one should have the right to see something YOU don't want to see has been an old and tiring subject. I personally am sick of people who bitch and whine about what they believe is too much.

If you don't like the product, don't buy it. If you just want pretty girls dancing and no nudity, Totem is working on that too.



I feel that this thread has quickly become one members Crusade and the Powers That Be need to put a stop to it and remove the sticky. Close the thread, if need be.

Enough is Enough.

I fully agree with 91hebasu

I own all the VG & DB cards that I have access to(1803). Regardless, of what direction Totem takes with their products, I am a lifetime customer...... until my wife finds my Model stash!

Totem has to follow the laws within their geographic location. Paris France.
It's solely up to you as a member, to make sure that your Use of their product, does not ***** any Local Laws in your own Geographic location.

So the bottom line is, Totem's product is legal in Paris, but YOU might be breaking the law where you reside by using their product.

That's about as simple as I can make it.

Please be careful of the TONE of your posts.
Forum discussions can continue so long as the Tone doesn't get out of hand.
And no personal attacks for someone elses view or contribution.

So far the majority of the posts have been a very civil discussion.
Let's keep it that way.

Bonjour, si je peut ajouter une information, en voici une

une des différence entre explicite et x-rated

dans un film ont peut montrer un acte sexuel de façon explicite mais le reste du film n'est pas x-rated, c'est à dire n'est pas pornographique, ceci parce que l'acte fait partie du scénario mais ne constitue pas tout le film.

montrer un acte sexuel de façon explicite est aussi de la pornographie, c'est une façon détourné pour certain réalisateurs de montrer des actes sexuel non simulé mais ne portant pas l'étiquette x-rated (pornographique) (bien sur la plupart de ces films ont été censuré dans les salles de cinéma).

j'en concluerai que la différence n'est qu'un terme juridique.

mais explicite et x-rated sont dans la même catégorie qui est pornographique.

aussi a savoir ce que l'ont entend par érotisme. le débat peut être très long et plein d'arguments peuvent être donnée de chaque camps.

La team à décidé de faire une différence, est à juste titre, que explicite serai aussi dans la catégorie érotisme et que x-rated serai dans la catégorie pornographique.

edit: seulement il faudrait donc déplacer une partie des clips explicite comportant des pénétration dans la section x-rated, ce qui va prendre du temps. sauf si l'ont veux bien considérer que ces dite pénétration soit de la catégorie érotisme.

comment choisir ?
explicite est un moment de pornographie dans le clip
x-rated est pornographique du début à la fin du clip

---------
Hello, if I can add information, here are a

One of the difference between explicit and x-rated

in a film can have a sex show explicitly but the rest of the film is not x-rated, is not pornographic, This is because the act is part of the script but it is not the whole movie.

show a sexual act explicitly are also pornography, it is a devious way for some filmmakers to show non-simulated sexual acts but not with the x-rated (pornographic) label (of course most of these films were censored in cinemas).

I will conclude that the difference is a legal term.

but explicit and x-rated are in the same category pornographic.

also now know what are meant by eroticism ? debate can be very long and full of arguments can be given to each camp.

The team decided to make a difference, rightly, be placed explicit in the category eroticism and x-rated in the pornographic category.

edit: just so it would move some explicit clips containing penetration in x-rated section, which will take time. unless want to have to consider that these so-called penetration are placed in the category eroticism.

how to choose?
explicit: show sometime pornography in the clip
x-rated: show pornography the beginning to the end of the clip

sorry for all edit.

I algree 91hebasu n 3leggedman. I like virtuagirl the it is. d109out.

What I have to say about this topic, is that Rex should let the girls make only strip in the shows, because maybe we are losing a lot of magnificent pole acrobacies for his policy of "leg spread must be" (nothing against Rex, just in pro of a good pole performance)